The options that Bezier paths allow for creating and recreating art constructed with lines (and fills) are exciting.
I wanted to experiment with combining the challenge of making a comic book like, continuity art project and use the Bezier tools in SA to see what I could come up with and how these tools might be integrated into a work flow.
I went about making a sample page in a traditional way. And also in an established way - something similar to a work flow i was already using.
I wanted to see how I could approach building a comic page with SA.
I wanted to use a surface technique that was very "organic" (not digital looking).
I wanted a look that was more or less an ink-like line and wet water like fill.
I had already developed a solid approach to a particular comic development with other applications including Expression3 and Photoshop. I wanted the art I created in SA to fit in with that other material - at least in the same general, natural media - ink and wash inspired area.
I had not worked with Bezier Draw (Edit/Warp) options in a decade.
I honestly found the Bezier tools too difficult to use way back in the day. The same tools have not changed - but after playing with them and the path stroke options - I decided to give them a concentrated test.
I set about trying to make a final digital product that could go to print and not look overly digital.
I discovered several things along the way.
I will share some experiences and hope this leads to further dialogue on the subject.
To make images print ready - I had to opt for a very large image size.
It is possible to draw the beziers at a smaller (same ratio) size and scale them up as a step in the process.
However. Drawing with beziers at a very large file size is more or less as easy (fast) as drawing at a smaller file size.
After some experimentation I went with: 3667(pixels)× 5482 at 150 dpi
File size does impact the way SA performs. An image this big with multiple layers slows the application down noticeably.
Again, however… The speed that the application is running only becomes a problem at very specific times. The slow down keeps in pace with the decision making and painting execution process. Because the steps of painting the images is slow and often very deliberate - SA's slow down was not a factor in my drawing image development speed.
It looks like I will have to continue this in a follow up comments.
I started by making a simple template of the comic page.
Four panels page - close to the 8.5 x 11 standard piece of printer paper… My template would be used as a source image for referencing the panel frames.
I could use Paths/Generate Paths/From Source Edges to create bezier boxes if I needed them. At this stage I only needed to know where the bounding boxes and rough art was positioned.
I cheated at this point and pulled out a failed composition from material already in development, to do this test.
Otherwise my next step would be to sketch out images for the page.
The key elements are roughed in and space allocated for word balloons.
From the rough as reference brought into SA as a Source Image - I turn on onion skinning.
Next I started drawing the bezier lines.
Drawing with SA's Bezier Draw tools:
I draw with a stylus on a Wacom tablet.
SA's bezier drawing records pressure and tilt. But does not preview anything other than a uniform thin line.
I have to make some assumptions about the results of what I draw - how pressure and tilt may effect a presets being applied to the line.
Beziers (as they preview in SA) are uniform. A very thin line with noticeable editable nodes.
The setting for "smoothness" available abstracts the line at higher numbers as well as reducing the number of edit nodes. The abstraction is unpredictable. This can be difficult to work with (for me expecting the smooth options to reduce nodes and retain my lines form and intent) - but a setting between 40 and 100 allowed me to create fairly neat lines that take a stroke well enough for the style I was attempting.
To keep my bezier collections as freely editable as possible I opted to make a layer for every panel (4 panels on a page in this case)
The example here is the upper left panel drawn in bezier. I made no attempt to stay within a bounding box.
I plan to mask or cut the art to fit a panel frame in a post art-creation step. The slop outside of the box actually matches the slop of the rough drawing as well. Being able to overflow the panel frame while drawing is a great advantage - allowing me to draw more freely and - to use the cliche - visualize (what is) outside the box a little more.
For a four panel page - I end up with four bezier frames.
If I add in another frame for the bounding boxes thats a fifth frame. (This would be a good idea - if I want my frame to have a similar line treatment as the art.
With all the panels drawn in bezier. Each on a new layer. I would prepare to stroke the beziers with a Paint Synth Preset.
Thru the menu: Path/Paint Path… and several options.
Full Layer paints whatever beziers are on the layer. Selection Only will paint beziers selected in the Bezier Edit mode. You can stroke the line (Paint Path) while in the Bezier modes. Hit the key command: (Mac - Apple-k) and see the results without having to jump in and out of modes.
With my sample page - I wanted a very ink and wash look.
I dredged up all my old Presets looking for interesting line effects. The Paint Path action will produce a sometimes very different effect than direct painting on the canvas. Some experimentation will be a must to find and adjust presets that will paint the stroke as desired - and adjustments will have to be made to presets that look good at one image size - but may look/behave differently at another.
One reason I did choose to work at near final print size was the need to have my presets draw predictably with every application. I adjusted them to the large scale. These same presets will draw much larger and or differently at any other scale. Paying close attention to image size is a must when the presets draw to a specific image size.
I have been working with several applications already trying to capture a line look that I could use easily and re-create quickly. I deliberately chose a monochromatic look.
In Photoshop - I created a custom brush look that appealed to me:
Soft edged with a hard center.
This brush blends well and behaves in a very natural way… Here is a detail:
But with this brush - one stroke applied over another is a forever thing. Better be willing to commit to each line. I wasn't happy about that commitment. Digital should mean editable (my way of thinking).
The drawback to building art in Photoshop with a brush like this is - I have no way to pull art apart that has been built all on one layer… To make an image like the sample here and keep it dissectible, I would have to build in hundreds of layers. Doable - but lots of work. Too much.
With Expression3 I used several custom brushes to get a similar but different (less liquid) effect.
E3 would be ideal for this kind of work for its easy of drawing, editing options and ability to reuse art. But - the trade off is a less fluid effect. (A note of interest: The custom brushes used in E3 were very probably made from art created with SA)
The results I got in other applications were close to what I wanted (or I could live with them)…
Studio Artist hadn't really been an option I was considering - until I dug around more in depth with the Bezier options.
Here are some results for this page:
I painted the bezier paths with a line: cd_wetink00 (probably)
I painted the wash-like fills by hand.
Using one or more of the cd_awetwash_sumibrush presets.
I could not anticipate how these lines would draw with beziers. Not without LOTS of practice and testing of results.
Fills looked something like this:
In the end I had to commit to the fills as they look… One layer - do it! What you get is what you get…
A detail of the three leaves to the left of the bird:
A composite of all the art on the page looks like this:
I did work with the elements outside of SA to composite, crop and adjust some elements quickly.
I haven't yet worked out how to do this in SA.
Adding word balloons and text is a step I have not ventured into - in SA.
I see no reason not to use other programs that make a job easier. Compositing and use of text are not strong points in SA. Building textured, rich artwork is.
For creating basic art - the effect is promising:
Very organic lines.
Control over elements - the ability to edit and reuse beziers.
Bonus:
I can re-stroke the beziers with any preset and any number of Presets.
I actually created/edited dozens of Paint Synth Presets looking for a good ink line… I am still looking for a line that will do what I really want… But some of the (here) options I came up with are pretty interesting. I will post these in the cool presets sharing group.
Thanks for this awesome post. I'm still trying to absorb it all, and then i'll try to ask some intelligent questions. Or maybe just try to code some intelligent solutions for you.
There is a way to record bezier paths into the bezier path layer while you are also drawing in normal paint mode. As long as you aren't using path randomization, then it gets a little tricky. So it would seem like making that synch up reliably would be useful for you. Because then you could work in normal drawing mode, but have the ability to edit the bezier paths later and then repaint them again.
yes in V1 and v2 the pen draw record was pretty reliable. In V3 and v4 so many of the drawing/painting tools either use randomization or the live extension path type, both of which can defeat the pen record.
I guess it might require an additional memory buffer but something that would record the actual pen movement (or a smoothed version thereof) and convert/record that to bezier paths irrespective of the brush being used would be a fab addition to the program.
Maybe we can start a new forum thread if you want to get into a detailed discussion about live recording bezier paths while drawing or painting normally ( as opposed to being specifically in bezier draw op mode when doing it ). I could dive into explanations, but it's going to distract from what this post is really all about, Craig's comic experiments.
I am definately interested in recording strokes applied directly on the canvas.
Following that option (another I had been unaware of or ignoring) in another thread would be great.
Following up more on this thread:
One thing I should make a big note of. The process I used follows a very traditional set of development steps - AND - is all about the hand drawn aspect of creating the art.
The hand drawn aspect of things is very labor intense. To get something out - you have to laboriously put it in. Something like my sample here actually would need more work. Maybe more takes. Redo's. For something that is going to show the personal touch (mine) this laborious process is a must. The same amount of labor - potentially more - would go in to doing this traditionally or digitally in another application. What I do not want to do too much of - is totally redoing things. If I can salvage or edit something to make it better - that would be the advantage of digital. The bezier tools in SA make this process more controllable.
SA's bezier tools are somewhat primitive - but not terrible. And using them to be able to take advantage of the editing options is not harder than using similar tools or attempting a similar process in many other heavy hitting applications.
The tools here - and potentially future improvements on them - have tons of potential and are already very usable. I will note - I had to step out of my original (frustrated - circa 2002) take on the Bezier tools to see the potential tho.
Comments
The options that Bezier paths allow for creating and recreating art constructed with lines (and fills) are exciting.
I wanted to experiment with combining the challenge of making a comic book like, continuity art project and use the Bezier tools in SA to see what I could come up with and how these tools might be integrated into a work flow.
I went about making a sample page in a traditional way. And also in an established way - something similar to a work flow i was already using.
I wanted to see how I could approach building a comic page with SA.
I wanted to use a surface technique that was very "organic" (not digital looking).
I wanted a look that was more or less an ink-like line and wet water like fill.
I had already developed a solid approach to a particular comic development with other applications including Expression3 and Photoshop. I wanted the art I created in SA to fit in with that other material - at least in the same general, natural media - ink and wash inspired area.
I had not worked with Bezier Draw (Edit/Warp) options in a decade.
I honestly found the Bezier tools too difficult to use way back in the day. The same tools have not changed - but after playing with them and the path stroke options - I decided to give them a concentrated test.
I set about trying to make a final digital product that could go to print and not look overly digital.
I discovered several things along the way.
I will share some experiences and hope this leads to further dialogue on the subject.
To make images print ready - I had to opt for a very large image size.
It is possible to draw the beziers at a smaller (same ratio) size and scale them up as a step in the process.
However. Drawing with beziers at a very large file size is more or less as easy (fast) as drawing at a smaller file size.
After some experimentation I went with: 3667(pixels)× 5482 at 150 dpi
File size does impact the way SA performs. An image this big with multiple layers slows the application down noticeably.
Again, however… The speed that the application is running only becomes a problem at very specific times. The slow down keeps in pace with the decision making and painting execution process. Because the steps of painting the images is slow and often very deliberate - SA's slow down was not a factor in my drawing image development speed.
It looks like I will have to continue this in a follow up comments.
I started by making a simple template of the comic page.
Four panels page - close to the 8.5 x 11 standard piece of printer paper… My template would be used as a source image for referencing the panel frames.
I could use Paths/Generate Paths/From Source Edges to create bezier boxes if I needed them. At this stage I only needed to know where the bounding boxes and rough art was positioned.
I cheated at this point and pulled out a failed composition from material already in development, to do this test.
Otherwise my next step would be to sketch out images for the page.
The key elements are roughed in and space allocated for word balloons.
From the rough as reference brought into SA as a Source Image - I turn on onion skinning.
Next I started drawing the bezier lines.
Drawing with SA's Bezier Draw tools:
I draw with a stylus on a Wacom tablet.
SA's bezier drawing records pressure and tilt. But does not preview anything other than a uniform thin line.
I have to make some assumptions about the results of what I draw - how pressure and tilt may effect a presets being applied to the line.
Beziers (as they preview in SA) are uniform. A very thin line with noticeable editable nodes.
The setting for "smoothness" available abstracts the line at higher numbers as well as reducing the number of edit nodes. The abstraction is unpredictable. This can be difficult to work with (for me expecting the smooth options to reduce nodes and retain my lines form and intent) - but a setting between 40 and 100 allowed me to create fairly neat lines that take a stroke well enough for the style I was attempting.
To keep my bezier collections as freely editable as possible I opted to make a layer for every panel (4 panels on a page in this case)
The example here is the upper left panel drawn in bezier. I made no attempt to stay within a bounding box.
I plan to mask or cut the art to fit a panel frame in a post art-creation step. The slop outside of the box actually matches the slop of the rough drawing as well. Being able to overflow the panel frame while drawing is a great advantage - allowing me to draw more freely and - to use the cliche - visualize (what is) outside the box a little more.
I will continue this in another comment.
I save each bezier frame as I go:
File/Export/Export Bezier Path Frame
For a four panel page - I end up with four bezier frames.
If I add in another frame for the bounding boxes thats a fifth frame. (This would be a good idea - if I want my frame to have a similar line treatment as the art.
With all the panels drawn in bezier. Each on a new layer. I would prepare to stroke the beziers with a Paint Synth Preset.
Thru the menu: Path/Paint Path… and several options.
Full Layer paints whatever beziers are on the layer. Selection Only will paint beziers selected in the Bezier Edit mode. You can stroke the line (Paint Path) while in the Bezier modes. Hit the key command: (Mac - Apple-k) and see the results without having to jump in and out of modes.
With my sample page - I wanted a very ink and wash look.
I dredged up all my old Presets looking for interesting line effects. The Paint Path action will produce a sometimes very different effect than direct painting on the canvas. Some experimentation will be a must to find and adjust presets that will paint the stroke as desired - and adjustments will have to be made to presets that look good at one image size - but may look/behave differently at another.
One reason I did choose to work at near final print size was the need to have my presets draw predictably with every application. I adjusted them to the large scale. These same presets will draw much larger and or differently at any other scale. Paying close attention to image size is a must when the presets draw to a specific image size.
I have been working with several applications already trying to capture a line look that I could use easily and re-create quickly. I deliberately chose a monochromatic look.
In Photoshop - I created a custom brush look that appealed to me:
This brush blends well and behaves in a very natural way… Here is a detail:
But with this brush - one stroke applied over another is a forever thing. Better be willing to commit to each line. I wasn't happy about that commitment. Digital should mean editable (my way of thinking).
The drawback to building art in Photoshop with a brush like this is - I have no way to pull art apart that has been built all on one layer… To make an image like the sample here and keep it dissectible, I would have to build in hundreds of layers. Doable - but lots of work. Too much.
With Expression3 I used several custom brushes to get a similar but different (less liquid) effect.
E3 would be ideal for this kind of work for its easy of drawing, editing options and ability to reuse art. But - the trade off is a less fluid effect. (A note of interest: The custom brushes used in E3 were very probably made from art created with SA)
To be continued...
The results I got in other applications were close to what I wanted (or I could live with them)…
Studio Artist hadn't really been an option I was considering - until I dug around more in depth with the Bezier options.
Here are some results for this page:
I painted the bezier paths with a line: cd_wetink00 (probably)
I painted the wash-like fills by hand.
Using one or more of the cd_awetwash_sumibrush presets.
I could not anticipate how these lines would draw with beziers. Not without LOTS of practice and testing of results.
Fills looked something like this:
In the end I had to commit to the fills as they look… One layer - do it! What you get is what you get…
A detail of the three leaves to the left of the bird:
A composite of all the art on the page looks like this:
I did work with the elements outside of SA to composite, crop and adjust some elements quickly.
I haven't yet worked out how to do this in SA.
Adding word balloons and text is a step I have not ventured into - in SA.
I see no reason not to use other programs that make a job easier. Compositing and use of text are not strong points in SA. Building textured, rich artwork is.
For creating basic art - the effect is promising:
Very organic lines.
Control over elements - the ability to edit and reuse beziers.
Bonus:
I can re-stroke the beziers with any preset and any number of Presets.
Here are a couple of examples:
I actually created/edited dozens of Paint Synth Presets looking for a good ink line… I am still looking for a line that will do what I really want… But some of the (here) options I came up with are pretty interesting. I will post these in the cool presets sharing group.
https://studioartist.ning.com/group/coolpresetsharinggroup/forum/top...
Beautifully done Craig... thanks for the explanation as well
Thanks for this awesome post. I'm still trying to absorb it all, and then i'll try to ask some intelligent questions. Or maybe just try to code some intelligent solutions for you.
There is a way to record bezier paths into the bezier path layer while you are also drawing in normal paint mode. As long as you aren't using path randomization, then it gets a little tricky. So it would seem like making that synch up reliably would be useful for you. Because then you could work in normal drawing mode, but have the ability to edit the bezier paths later and then repaint them again.
yes in V1 and v2 the pen draw record was pretty reliable. In V3 and v4 so many of the drawing/painting tools either use randomization or the live extension path type, both of which can defeat the pen record.
I guess it might require an additional memory buffer but something that would record the actual pen movement (or a smoothed version thereof) and convert/record that to bezier paths irrespective of the brush being used would be a fab addition to the program.
Maybe we can start a new forum thread if you want to get into a detailed discussion about live recording bezier paths while drawing or painting normally ( as opposed to being specifically in bezier draw op mode when doing it ). I could dive into explanations, but it's going to distract from what this post is really all about, Craig's comic experiments.
I am definately interested in recording strokes applied directly on the canvas.
Following that option (another I had been unaware of or ignoring) in another thread would be great.
Following up more on this thread:
One thing I should make a big note of. The process I used follows a very traditional set of development steps - AND - is all about the hand drawn aspect of creating the art.
The hand drawn aspect of things is very labor intense. To get something out - you have to laboriously put it in. Something like my sample here actually would need more work. Maybe more takes. Redo's. For something that is going to show the personal touch (mine) this laborious process is a must. The same amount of labor - potentially more - would go in to doing this traditionally or digitally in another application. What I do not want to do too much of - is totally redoing things. If I can salvage or edit something to make it better - that would be the advantage of digital. The bezier tools in SA make this process more controllable.
SA's bezier tools are somewhat primitive - but not terrible. And using them to be able to take advantage of the editing options is not harder than using similar tools or attempting a similar process in many other heavy hitting applications.
The tools here - and potentially future improvements on them - have tons of potential and are already very usable. I will note - I had to step out of my original (frustrated - circa 2002) take on the Bezier tools to see the potential tho.
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