more feedback questions

[Michael Theodore]

Ok - now I'm starting understand how to make stuff with the feedback warp, which is very cool. So now I'm wondering if there's any way to do video feedback style effects without the actual warping? For example, doing some kind of rotation or scaling in conjunction with feedback? thanks, Michael

[Synthetik]

You could use any of the interactive warp operations and if you didn't reset the canvas background and run the effect multiple times you would get a video feedback simulation. Both rotation and scaling are in interactive warp along with all the other stuff.

I think you could probably rig up msg using a live video source to build all kinds of video feedback effects that would work off of the live video. i'll try to run a few tests later today.

[Michael Theodore]

Ok, so I'm trying this, and it isn't doing exactly what I'm looking for. With paseq record turned on, I'm selecting scale and rotate from the interactive warp, then mousing down in the canvas, thereby recording a paseq step. When I run that paseq (and don't reset the canvas background), I get that effect applied to a single source frame over and over.

What I'd really like is to apply video feedback style effects to the successive frames of a video file (i.e., not just to a single frame recursively). Is this possible?

thanks,
Michael

[Synthetik]

You could set the canvas to the source image as the first step in the paseq. then record a series of successive interactive warp operations to simulate N levels of feedback. then turn off paseq recording and process a movie file with that paseq.

[Michael Theodore]

I wasn't explaining it very well, but I'm getting what I wanted by creating a temp layer, doing the warping on it, and then using fixed image to copy a percentage of that into the "real" layer.

Thanks for all the help! I've got a big project that I'm trying to finish over the next short while...

thanks,
Michael

[Michael Theodore]

This is a reply to a message from Donna--hi Donna. Camera based feedback using MSG and SA sounds really cool. Will have to try that sometime. What I'm doing is basically
1) using fixed image to copy some small percentage of an image onto the canvas, then
2) rotating, zooming or translating the canvas.

Since I'm using fixed image to fade in a small amount, what had been on the canvas gets repeatedly transformed, giving way to feedback type effects. This is an example of the kind of thing I've been experimenting with:
http://imig.colorado.edu/~theodore/feed.mov
(it started as a single still image). I've also made stuff that looks much more like classical video feedback (like you'd get w. a camera). The thing that's nice about an actual camera is all the "imperfection."

cheers,
Michael

[Synthetik]

Cool effect, very different than the normal feedback thing!

Without revealing too much i think you're going to be pretty excited about some of the new features of studio artist 4 based on what you are currently doing.

I'm also intrigued by your comment on the 'imperfection' of the actual camera. Can you define that a little more and i'll try to build something in to reproduce the organic qualities of the camera feedback.

[Michael Theodore]

Just even the idea of a version 4, whatever new stuff is in it, makes me extremely excited!

I think what I was thinking of with the camera is the way the colors get somewhat altered on the round trip journey from the screen (as opposed to a perfect digital copy). On the other hand, one could always through in a hue shift or whatever into the digital feedback loop. The other thing is the hand held tremors, which one could simulate by throwing in TGs.

All that being said, and as much as I like the immediacy of camera based video feedback, I prefer doing feedback with SA because of all of the control it offers.

Incidentally, there are some interesting articles online about using feedback to create fractal structures.....

[Synthetik]

You could add in some additional pixel noise with an extra msg processor or paseq step depending on what you are doing to dirty things up a little.

I know with real video feedback if you zoom in really far you start to get some visual structure somehow associated with the camera sensors and sensor noise.

If you want to post the links for the feedback articles you are referring to i'm sure some of the people who read this would be interested in reading them.

I've been recently using transformed multiple layers with weird compositing operations between the layers a lot to build up visual complexity. I'll build several different layers, then flatten them down to 1, then repeat the process using the flattened layer as the source for all of the other layer transformations. Then repeat the process again, etc. An alternative to feedback for creating something like fractal structure or increased visual complexity.

[Michael Theodore]

Here are some links to video feedback/fractal things:
http://www.physics.gla.ac.uk/Optics/projects/fractalVideoFeedback/i...
http://www.videofeedback.dk/World/
http://www.sweetandfizzy.com/fractals/diagrams.html
http://www.o-art.org/history/70's/nonlinearVid.html (James Crutchfield!)

I'm not sure I exactly understand how the compositing thing works. Are you placing the same source on all of the different layers? If so, then I think I get it. I want to test it out!

[Synthetik]

Modified versions of the same source. They could be spatially warped or displacement mapped or Vectorized in different ways.